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 Post subject: Compensating horns
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 4:45 pm 
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In people's experience, are there any (current) makes/models of compensating double or triple horns whose compensating low F side is as good (or almost as good) as an independent low F side?

In particular, does anybody have experience of the Paxman Mod 33 double or Mod 83 triple?


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 Post subject: Re: Compensating horns
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:40 pm 
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Alepax wrote:
In people's experience, are there any (current) makes/models of compensating double or triple horns whose compensating low F side is as good (or almost as good) as an independent low F side?

Not really. Good enough to get by. Get a full double. If you want a compensating triple you are chasing a sort of all over 'good enough' horn. I tried one once and it did the job of covering everything you had to play on tour for example but only 'getting by'. I wouldn't do it again. There must be some good players who use them but I can't think of any. Why not do what the VPO do and play a proper horn and have a single F Alto for those 'bits'. Just a thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Compensating horns
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 6:45 pm 
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Helpful advice. I do have "proper" horns, but couldn't help wondering whether the grass might be greener on the other side, so to speak. Because of their unique design, I think that the Cornford compensating doubles and triples may be the only ones with really good low F sides.

I may get the opportunity to try a Paxman 83 in a few days' time but, in the light of what you say, I won't expect much from the low F. Plus, it's very heavy. Maybe I'll get an F-extn for my Paxman Mod 45 - then I'll almost have a FULL triple, anyway :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Compensating horns
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:30 am 
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I don't have any experience of compensators, though there is a school of thought which believes they are under-rated. I've played in a section with a Paxman 33 and it sounded very good across the range.

A compensating triple makes sense if you're a high player and do most of the work on the Bb side - it does save some weight. However, the weight issue is a personal matter. I'm using a Paxman 76 a lot at the moment, which is a full triple (plus stopping valve) and therefore heavier than a compensating triple. I'm not particularly beefy, but I manage to practise standing up with no problems. And it does produce a very meaty sound.

As regards the Cornford triple horn design, I'm sceptical, in view of the fact that the airflow for the F side has a lot of valves to go through and there is no dedicated bell branch for the F alto side either, unlike Paxman's design.

An F extension for a descant horn is a seriously good idea; the extra weight may or may not help the sound, but it will make a good G in the stave available (if the Bb side with first valve is flat), or if this is not needed, pull the tuning slide on it out a bit to get a good F# below the stave (to avoid the 1+2+3 valve combination). Or pull the tuning slide out some more to get a pedal Bb.


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 Post subject: Re: Compensating horns
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 9:42 am 
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Much food for thought here.

On the Cornfords, the F-basso air goes in a straight line through the change valve(s) which should make for less resistance, therefore less of a risk of "stuffiness". I once had a Lidl Bb/F compensator built, like the more upmarket Cornford, on the Lehmann design. Whatever its other shortcomings, I have to say that the F side was just as free-blowing as the Bb side.

I remember seeing your Paxman Mod 76 on the Rimskys Horns website. It was pretty cheap and I toyed with the idea of buying it. I was put off, though, by what I assumed would be excessive weight. It sounds as though you have found it very manageable. It's all relative, I suppose. If I've being playing a single Bb for a while and then have a gig coming up requiring my Paxman Mod 26 (Mod 25 with dual stopping valve) I get quite an initial shock at the weight change.

A while back, Dave Lee reviewed the Paxman Mod 83 in the BHS Horn Magazine. He was impressed by the F-alto side and by the Bb side. Frustratingly, though, he neglected to say anything at all about the compensating F-basso side!


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 Post subject: Re: Compensating horns
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 6:16 pm 
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Yes, AP, it was cheap as advertised and Erik (proprietor of Rimsky's) accepted €4000 for it, which at the time was about £3000. And there was the journey and one night's accommodation, though we in effect made a weekend of it and enjoyed it.

But he neglected to tell me that the horn was built to A = 445, which Paxmans themselves confirmed. However, Luke Woodhead fabricated a longer main tuning and a longer F alto tuning slide for a couple of hundred quid, so I think I still had a bargain.

It does have some odd intonation problems, though these are manageable.

People who try it find it heavy and it needs some care in handling. It is capable of playing very loudly.


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 Post subject: Re: Compensating horns
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:27 pm 
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Assorted comments:

Good compensating doubles DO have good F-sides, especially with an ML bell throat, e.g. Kuehn, Kruspe, Alex, Yamaha - probably 80-90 %, of the playing quality you would expect from the F-side on a good full double. There are advantages to lighter horns (see below), however good full doubles obviously do have better F sides still.

I tried a couple of the Cornford double-compensated triples several years ago when the design was new. Unfortunately they both had a noticeable resistance increase on the low F-sides, especially when using additional valves.

F-extensions on Bb singles and descants make a lot of sense. You can also use combination fingerings to get E, Eb D and Db crooks (with a little right hand correction) and these can be used for both their tone colour and hand stopping (as well as the obvious pedal notes). Since I added an F extension to my Bb single, I never took it off again!

I used to play on a full triple. Compared to a normal set-up, the extra weight makes it easy to produce a powerful sound, but the corollary to this is you have to work harder to produce a lighter sound for chamber music etc. Playing a heavier instrument also tires the embouchure more quickly, so if you have a full triple you will feel the need to use an f-alto more often due to the mass of the instrument!

Since getting a lighter weight full double (Kuehn) 6 years ago, I haven't ever felt the need for an f-alto, even for extreme high register gigs. A lighter horn can still produce a powerful sound when required, but gives increased flexibility and more tone colours for chamber music settings. 8-)


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