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 Post subject: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:02 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 34
Hello!

I have played horn for 20 years and as principal in orchestra for 7 years.
Last 13 years I played on Denis Wick no 4, it was comfortable for me, because my lips are
quite fleshy.
During last few years, this mouthpiece s rim started to change sharper, because
goldplating was coming off and creating tiny sharp edges on the rim.
I couldnt find similar mouthpiece, new wick no. 4 was totally different, rim contour
and even shape werent not the same as older one. So I continued
to play on it.

I recognized that my playing is getting harder and harder now, specially I have lost
good legato slurs and its getting more difficult to start notes in middle register.
I am feeling that my lips dont have that much space to vibrate in cup any more and I am feeling
one harder spot on my upper lip, just on the one side of mouthpiece ring. And inside edge
of mouthpiece is cutting into it.

I visited doctor, who examined my upper lip and said that I have a scar tissue on it.
She also said that it would be permanent and even taking some time off the horn would not
make it disappear.

Any advice what to do?
I would not like to stop this occupation immediately.

Changing to bigger mouthpiece? Even Denis Wick no 4 is already quite big...

Hoping to get some useful hints,

Jan Pentshuk


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:16 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:49 am
Posts: 682
Location: Robertsbridge
I suggest you change from your DW rim as soon as possible. I also suggest that while your embouchure is recovering you use a 'softer' rim. PHC can supply you with a choice of acetal rims including White Acetal (plastic) Black Acetal and Crystalite (clear plastic). You can ask Mike Bosley for polished or unpolished finishes on all PHC plastic rims and we do allow you to try PHC mouthpieces so you are able to find the best cup/rim combination for you. Not many people use DW mouthpieces because they are thought to be fairly poorly designed. Horn players who have suffered embouchure damage will hopefully post their suggestions to help you.

PHC mouthpieces are available from

http://buyinstruments.co.uk/shop/catego ... =cid%3D%26

Mike Bosley
Batchmere Trading Ltd
81 Essex Road
Bognor Regis
PO21 2BY

01243 821382

mikebosley@hotmail.co.uk & 01243 821382

The rim dimensions are @ http://horncups.com/range.htm

Rims

Halstead and Chidell have introduced 2 'American-style' narrow rims into the range so that the many horn players who prefer this type of rim will be able to use any of the 15 PHC cups.

INTERNAL DIAMETER-RIM WIDTH
US-1 17.00mm 3.50mm
US-2 17.00mm 3.80mm

For Philip Farkas, the ideal rim was one that was 'neither too large nor too small'. An ideal description for these four rims which have long been popular with the many players who find a slightly larger internal diameter rim comfortable.

AN 17.50mm 3.75mm
AS 17.50mm 4.50mm
AM 17.50mm 5.10mm
AW 17.50mm 5.70mm

To meet a demand for an internal diameter that falls between that of the 'AS' and the 'S', these two most popular rims are now available with an internal diameter of 18.00mm.

AS-18 18.00mm 4.25mm
S-18 18.00mm 4.50mm

The advantages of using wider internal diameter rims are immediately apparent. More of the lip is free to vibrate within the mouthpiece, which allows greater mobility over the entire range and gives the potential for developing a greater variety of tone colours.

N 18.50mm 4.00mm
S 18.50mm 4.75mm
M 18.50mm 5.25mm
W 18.50mm 5.70mm

All 12 rims are available in a choice of finishes - silver plate, gold plate and white acetal, which is hypoallergenic, has a more constant temperature and a unique 'soft' feel. All of these rims can be used with any of the 15 PHC cups.


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 34
Thanks for reply!

If Denis Wick no. 4 has 18 mm inside diameter and 5 mm rim width, which rim You suggest me?

I have ordered actually 3 rims from PHC: S-18 has too narrow rim for me and M and W rims have too big inside diameter.
S-18 rim is silver, M is gold and W is white acetal.

Good idea is to try plastic rim, but what are the differences between unpolished and polished rim?

Jan


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:49 am
Posts: 682
Location: Robertsbridge
We think you should try the PHC S-18 & AS-18 White Acetal or Stainless Steel S-18 & AS-18 rims combined with a PHC 22A or 23A cup. Mike Bosley can arrange this if you contact him with your address.

If the gold plate has gone from your Wick rim then the brass will be leaching/leaking lead from the brass as Wick mouthpieces are made with leaded brass.

Polished plastic rims are shiny like a new gold plated rim and unpolished are more like a rim which you have been using for a while. Some horn players like shiny new rims and others like the grip you can get from an older rim. White Acetal rims are not quite so shiny and have some feel of a 'texture' to them. That's the best I can do in describing the feel of a rim in text.


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 34
TonyC:

I think that S-18 and AS-18 rims dont suit to me. S-18 I already own and its too narrow, AS-18 is even narrower.
I might try N rim ( 18.5 ID, 4.75 rim width ) or AM rim ( 17.5 ID, 5.1 width ), but they are both different in inside diameters.

It would be really nice to have S-18 rim with 5.0 mm rim width. Therefore I could get mouthpiece what I am seeking.

Would PHC make custom rims? Or the price would be really expensive?
I am asking because saw menu in the web - PHC Custom products ( coming soon ).


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:23 pm
Posts: 138
Location: UK
I strongly recommend that you don't go down the 'custom rim' road!
Firstly, because it will be expensive, and secondly, if you lose the rim you can't get an immediate, off-the-shelf/ in stock replacement. Therefore you would need to order and buy several custom rims, all ( hopefully!) the same. Even more money..

In my opinion you should realistically be looking at, and considering TWO choices:
1) Get hold of an M rim ( 18.5mm inside diameter, rim width 5.25mm which is only 0.25mm - ONLY A QUARTER OF A MILLIMETRE wider than the Wick 4 rim which you seem to like) and practise so that you get used to the slightly wider inside diameter of 18.5mm compared to the Wick 18mm. Once you are comfortable with it, you will have greater mobility, flexibility, more tonal variety and greater stamina/ endurance. This last virtue will also be enhanced by the 5.25mm rim.

2) Get an AW rim and ask a good mouthpiece craftsman to widen the 17.5mm inside diameter to 18mm. Of course, unless this is done to either a solid unplated Nickel silver rim or an Acetal (plastic) rim you will have to get the rim re-plated.
Doing the 'maths' this will give you a rim width of 5.45mm, so, slightly wider than the M rim which is my strongest recommendation above.

Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:23 pm
Posts: 138
Location: UK
I seem to have an unhappy knack of bringing conversations to a grinding halt...!

:roll:
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 34
Genialhorn:

I did some try with M rim and I think that perhaps in some time I will get used to it.
Of course, it seems to me, that my high range will be suffered. But I am really in the beginning. Just have been playing on it for 2 days.

I have only 25A cup with my M rim. I bought that one, because it was called "deep cup" like Wick no.4.
At the moment I am playing on Alexander 103, which has a quite a high level of resistance.

Do You suggest to move to some other cup, after I am getting used to this M- rim? And if yes, which one?


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 47
jan110 wrote:
Genialhorn:

I have only 25A cup with my M rim. I bought that one, because it was called "deep cup" like Wick no.4.
At the moment I am playing on Alexander 103, which has a quite a high level of resistance.

Do You suggest to move to some other cup, after I am getting used to this M- rim? And if yes, which one?


I have tried a variety of cups with my 103, and found the 23A seems to work best for me. I seem to remember some other threads on the forum where others were also using this combination.


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 Post subject: Re: Scar tissue on upper lip
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:30 pm
Posts: 34
Thanks for advice, Sandy!

By the way, did You also tried 25A cup? Did you feel its too deep and therefore harder to play in high or is it question about tone colour?


I have played with M rim for 5 days now and there is strange thing:
At first it felt quite ok, but after some days its getting harder to play on it, as i requires a lot of energy. Is it normal issue when getting used to new horn or new mouthpiece?


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