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Hi all you HornCups message boarders, I hope it's OK to use the NoticeBoard for this purpose.
I've decided to sell my '1981 vintage' Paxman Model 40M as I need the money to buy a Schmid.
It's a lovely horn, yellow brass, screw bell and with an alternative Gold brass bell flare. There's a fair bit of lacquer wear on it but it's been overhauled very recently by Roy Cox and the valves are excellent with very good 'poppiness' (compression).
I've asked my teacher Tony Halstead to handle the sale (http://www.halsteadmusic.co.uk)
and it will be on his website in the near future.
In the meantime it can be seen at
http://www.hornplayer.net/forsale/f8520.html

Can I try and save you 3 years of nagging doubts and irritation Kev ?

Don't buy the Scmid because you'll end up selling it when you can't make the sound you want to in the upper dynamics. You'll love it for a year then the doubts will creep in quickly followed by the frustration and then you'll be on the blower to tone. Check out his site and you will see that every schmid that appears on it ends up being sold by the owner after that period. Don't get me wrong, beautifully made horns, perfect intonation, very quick response and a great f horn. However if you play in an orchestra then unless you go for gold brass, a nickel bell with a garland and something like a heavy cup 25 PHC you will always make 'that' sound when you get going.

I'm sure you'll buy it anyway but just be warned. Personally I would choose an 1103 or a med bore 20/23 because it will give you the scope to make the sound you, and indeed everyone else wants.

If you are going to buy a schmid alto, on the other hand, then ignore all of the above. Sorry Engelbert, you are a craftsmen of the highest calibre but would you consider making a model for the european orchestral market ?

Cheers Jez

Jeremy

Do you mean the sound is dull and doesn't project - is it not possible to get an "edge"
on the sound "early" enough. I'm not quite sure what you mean although it's very
interesting.

Chris

Hi Chris

No I don't mean that, in fact quite the reverse. Having owned one for about 3 years I PERSONALLY found that however hard I tried, I couldn't make that rich, weighty fortissimo sound that I wanted to. Instead I got a very razzy, white hot bacon frying type of sound which got on my tits no end.

They are brilliant horns for light solo work, chamber orchestras and ensembles but for my money they lack the punch in the orchestra. There are obvious exceptions to these findings but I would say that lots of people share my belief. If you can afford a second horn then a Bflat single would be very useful but as a main double I would say probably not.

Some people go to great lengthes to weigh them down with garlands and heavier metal but why not save yourself a couple of K in these dark times and buy a Paxman or Alex ?

I thought us americans were the only ones THAT discriminating about equipment. Does the horn really matter that much? Who cares what he plays as long as he gets what he wants out of it. Of course it will be different from what he's playing on now and his manner of production may change but I really don't think he'll be unhappy with the horn in a year or so.....the horn stays the same, the player changes! Much like relationships with Women. I'm gonna go eat some steak.....

Hoss

Couldn't agree more Hoss, who does care as long as Kev gets what he wants from the instrument ? My rather long winded tirade/point is that, having played a Scmid professionally for 3 years in all kinds of repertoire, I found it somewhat lacking in the loud stuff due to the fact that the bell is paper thin.

I don't doubt that Kev will enjoy finding this out for himself but since they are heroically expensive, I thought I would put in a word of warning.

Incidentally, none of what I have written is shocking news, they've had this reputation for years. As you so eloquently put, it is down to the individual's needs and playing environment as to what sound is required and if a scmid fits the bill then great.

How was the steak ?

Red meat gets me going. The weight of a horn is a very interesting topic as is how tapers interact with weight is also another interesting subject. I've bought and sold a huge number of horns but I will say that tapers on an instrument can play a huge part in how the instrument responds/produces sounds. The loudest horn I have ever owned was a Berlin Schmidt (not schmid) made in 1924, played in Pittsburgh for a number of years. Dan Rauch worked it over real good with something like a shilke/lewis/rauch pipe. He also provided two bells, 1 a new single seam rauch bell, 2nd the original completely broken down and copper plated...it was paper thin but would ring forever. The lighter copper bell blew the other bell out of the water and it weighed half as much. It was simply the biggest sound with the most "core" I've ever experienced on any horn. I now play on a 7 pound lawsonized 8d and it doesn't even compare to the schmidt I owned.

With a little bit of work I bet a schmid (not schmidt) could live up to any paxman, 8d, lawson etc. But at 10 grand and up is it really worth that effort? I do know that every time I pick up a schmid people say "that's the horn". Another gentleman owned an older schmid from the 80's, that horn has the most "core" I've ever heard of any horn, although I'm assuming the bell wasn't of schmid make neither was the valve section (typical meinl valves/bell).

I do feel that the player impacts performance 99.998% and by making the right leadpipe/mouthpiece choices the horn can be an excellent amplifier of what we're putting in the mouthpiece. I myself will most likely play/blow the shirt out of whatever is in my hands and I know if I had the money I'd own one..........Of course I'd drive a hummer with bull horns on the front as well.....

Hi all,

I play a model 40M 1983 vintage and have found that the phc 21 cup with a Narrow rim gives me a full dynamic range. I would not swop it for the world. In my humble opinion the model cannot be beaten for its ability to match the sound of the f alto withe the Bb, that is of course if it is a good one. I worked for Paxman in the late seventies and Dick Merewether was adamant that the two sides could be matched with practice. He said that most hornplayers just stuck there thumb valve down for high notes without bothering to get used to the whole of the f alto range. Just my two penny worth!!

Take care.

I too play a Paxman 40L, old-style, quite a lot. My former teacher also used another example of this model - virtually all the time. He was scathing about players who kept an alto "under the bed" - i.e. only used it when they were suddenly scared about a forthcoming gig. He reckoned you needed to play it a lot to get the most out of it. The two sides do not blow in the same way and if you don't work at the f-alto side it will sound unattractive. This is what gets altos a bad name, in my view.

The beauty of the pre-'85 model 40 is the superb B flat side which, unless you are
playing a VERY high Bach Cantata, should bear nearly all of the work.

What do people think of the post '85 40 in comparison and indeed is the Schmid
B flat/F alto that much better than both or over hyped and priced (£9,000 on the
road) or is Engelbert laughing all the way to the Deutsche Bank!

There is also the Alex 107 and the "budget" Holton 200 - any thoughts anyone?