horncups.com

PHC Horn Forum
It is currently Fri May 24, 2024 2:25 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:24 am
Posts: 54
One of my main problems with playing the horn, is how one moves from one register to another, especially between the mid-low and the low register. I've never been able to do this as smoothly as I'd like. Downwards doesn't seem to be that big of a problem, but I tend to 'roll out' my bottom lip too much when doing so, which is giving me somewhat of a problem when doing the opposite (from low to mid-low). I was wondering how the other horn players deal with this?

Tim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:19 am
Posts: 130
Obviously either of the Tony's could advise you but why are you rolling out your
bottom lip? Have you got an extreme inset embouchure?

Anyway a few suggestions :-

!) Book a lesson with a good teacher asap.

2) Pull the corners of lips down vocalising "aw" when descending tongue to bottom of
mouth - gradually.

3) Reverse the procedure when ascending vocalising "ee" tongue arched high -gradually.

4)Do NOT pivot mouthpiece = the embouchure does the work. Keep chin pulling DOWN
always. Don't press,squeeze, grimace , keep it natural = puckered smile.

5) The correct shape of the mouth when playing say a C 2nd space Bass Clef (new notation) and lower is the Greek drama mask for tragedy.


6) Read your Farkas Art of Horn Playing now - buy one tomorrow if you haven't got
one.


Good Luck


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:24 am
Posts: 54
Thanks for your reply Chris. I tend to shift between onset and inset as I pas through the registers, this transition (between high down to mid-low and vice versa) isn't a problem, that all works fine. I believe I have a pretty firm embouchure as well. But in the lower register, around the low E, I seem to lose the ability, with a normal embouchure, to start the note, give it color and volume, sometimes even to sustain it. This isn't because of the rim or cup of my mouthpiece (I've had that problem on even the biggest of mouthpiece combinations.) And rolling out, or perhaps better put, showing more bottom lip seems to cure this problem. Getting it back in position seems to be going smoother these days, but when slurring up from that register, well.. it works, but as I said, not as cleanly as I'd like.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:32 am
Posts: 110
Location: south
It sounds like your troubles start with how you go from mid to low.

One of Julian's exercises is to slur downward from middle f down through c and down to low f. Then going down through the valves and on to the f horn when you get to middle c etc. evntually you can end up slurring down to the fundamentals but I would stick to the more practical registers and get that part sorted.

The procedure is to bend middle f until it flicks down to the c and then bend the c down trying to play all the notes in between until it flips down to the f. What you are doing is training the lip to form the notes rather than just dropping you jaw and seeing what comes out. Sort out that element and coming back up shouldn't be so tough. if that makes no sense then go and see Julian Baker, Tony C/H or anyone that you've ever heard of who is good at playing low notes and teaching the horn.

Best of luck Jez


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:19 am
Posts: 130
From what you say you have a good old fashioned embouchure "break". In other words
an embouchure that works for say the middle and top and one for the bottom. The
"break" occurs at e below middle c. Two embouchures in fact.

Don't worry it used to be very common when players were more defined into low and
high than now. I could name at least two legendary soloists who had one (you'd be
surprised) Of course you still specialise but only if you get a full time job - you really
can't get away with it today.

Nowadays all players are expected to cover a 4 octave range smoothly with relative
ease (opening of Heldenleben Rheingold and that slur over 3 octaves in Daphnis and
Chloe Ballet from bottom c to top c spring to mind as examples) - don't
think I've met a 4 octave slur but you never know.

Anyway any competent teacher will give you exercises to practise "over the break" until things smooth out.

Or if necessary adjust or at worst change your embouchure to one that can cope
with the four octaves smoothly. Whichever route you choose will require patience and
hard work and the sooner you address it the better.

Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:57 pm
Posts: 221
Location: USA, San Diego, California
One of the exercises I have been using is something I call "harmonic glissandos".

You are probably familiar with "lip slurs". This is in some ways similar but it is different. I believe when lip slurring we anticipate our lip position, tension, and air speed. With the harmonic glissando we avoid the anticipated positioning and I find most of my students find it easier to play higher.

Here is how it works:
The pattern and valve combinations are just like the lip slurs but we use a different technique and do them much slower.
On the open F horn, pick a note (G below the treble clef).
Slowly glissando up to the next HARMONIC. Glissando slowly back down to G.
Glissando up slowly until the next harmonic pops out.
(try a lip slur and compare it to this glisaando technique, it should be different).

Practicing this slowly will eventually change embouchre just slightly enough you might your 'break' at a different place or gone althogether.

-John


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:24 am
Posts: 54
Thanks for all the replies so far, I've read some very nice ideas here! I believe I'm slowly getting there, I experimented with placing the mouthpiece slightly lower on my lips, putting in a bit more bottom lip. I still have a break, but I can do this now by simply 'dropping' my jaw and more or less leave the lips where they were. I'm taking it slowly this way, and doing the already suggested exercises. Attacks in the lower register seem cleaner as well. But, no good news without bad. I lost a lot of the sound I used to be able to make below low C now. But perhaps quality is in my case better than quantity. I believe Tony H once told me on one of my visits that he had yet to hear of a player who lost his job for playing too quiet.

So thanks a lot for the already suggested tips. If anyone still has some other tips, let's hear 'em.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:46 pm
Posts: 10
Why don't you pick up Randy Gardners book, Mastering the low Register.......It will change your world. Be patient in your exploration and do tons and tons of low exercises, long tones, arpeggios to get those low chops going. The more you play over the break the better it will get....GUARANTEED! Give yourself long term goals and play as much in the low range as you are every other area of the horn. I thought I had terrible low chops until I actually started playing in the low register. :!:

Hoss


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:18 am
Posts: 1
I have just joined this forum, and I notice that you posted this inquiry a while ago.

Since the range of the horn is so wide, players will always have a “shift register” with which to contend. This shift register is determined to a great extent by the physiology of the teeth and lips. If a player’s upper lip is thicker than their lower lip and they have a typical “overbite” their embouchure will have a classic “downstream” angle with upper-lip overlap. If one’s upper lip is thinner than the lower, and the player has an “underbite”, where the lower teeth sit further forward than the upper teeth, this will usually lead to an “einsetzen” embouchure and straight-out or even “upstream” angle.

Because of the many variations of physiologies of lips and teeth, the range on the horn where the shift register sits and what we do with our lips for this transition varies greatly from player to player. Whether for the low register setting the lower lip “rolls out” as you have described, or both lips become more puckered, or the jaw is dropped, 2 factors remain common: 1) Avoid any lateral, or sideways shifting of the jaw; and 2) All embouchure shifts can be made more workable through specifically-targeted exercises that deal with this issue.

In my book of studies called “Practical Exercises for Horn” I deal specifically with various physical aspects of horn playing, and in the section entitled “Facilitating the Embouchure Shift” I deal precisely with this issue. There is more information about these studies on my website: http://maestro.idx.com.au on the page “Publications and Teaching”. This volume is published by 3-C Musikverlag in Bochum, Germany and has previously been available at the Juilliard Bookstore and at Patelson’s (New York). However you may be able to acquire it directly from the publisher Christoph Schieri at 3-C, whose details are on the same webpage.

I have used these exercises myself over many years, and have utilised them with great success for my own students, as well as for students of other teachers who have invited me to give master classes at various conservatories in the US. I believe they may also be of assistance in your case.

All the best,

Lee Bracegirdle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transition between the registers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:17 am
Posts: 53
You need to relax your embouchure, part your lips, open your throat and pour down a couple of pints of foaming ale, then add a garlic lip moisturiser for finer toning. You will then have greater flexibility through the registers!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group